Thought of the first quote when reading about South African society in the press - xenophobia and prostitution being just two of the headlines today of our once-rainbowed nation.
It was a great little church we visited actually - definitely the coolest church building I've been in in ages, comprising an old barn complete with ancient wooden beams and hessian-clad roof on a farm (you park in a multi-layered field a bit like a terraced rice-paddy and trudge through mud to get to the door). Not bad music too, and a basic sermon on salvation from Rom 5 (there was an infant baptism and so I assume many visitors (place was packed out), so well-aimed at non-Christians).We probably won't end up going to that chuch, cos once again, we found it possible to walk right through the congregation and stand around outside for ages and not one soul talks to you. They are obviously trying (there was an ad on the screen asking members to 'invite someone for coffee' - but we didn't know where to go, so ended up outside, and no-one invited us anyway). And the odd thing was everyone knew who the visitors were, because at one point in the service the regulars were all asked to stand... but hey.
Very cool that there was English, Afrikaans and even some Latin in the songs - athough the Latin was wrong - "Gloria in excelcius Deo". Excelcius? As in 'outside of/from/formerly of the metric temperature system'? The band even pronounced it 'Ex-selsee-us'. Heh. Excelsis. Ex-tchel-sis, if you're reading this :-)
Anyway - a good service, a solid message, loads of young people, newly marrieds, a good mix of kids and old folks. But again with the talking to strangers in the midst, not so much.
12 comments:
Hey Ludwig...you should have come to say hello! I was the one preaching. Do you live in the area?
The latin is the same as the original version of the song, which is also wrong!It has been pointed out before by one of my multilingual academic colleagues :)
Sad to hear that no one said hello to you. It is a major frustration in our community that people isolate themselves from each other. I was at a family in a security complex nearby and they have an extra security wall and gate around their property...there is a reall reticence to allow others to get close or involved in their lives :(
It plays intself out at worship reguarly in the way with visitors coming unnoticed and I confess that at points I am sure I am guilty of it too...
heh. yeah, I realised who you were - looked you up on Facebook before we came to the service :-) Wife and I were sitting 3 feet in front of you :-) (I'm both Ludwig and Colin in posts to your blog - pressed the wrong button first couple of times - unusual for geek like me!)
Yeah, it's tough I know. We just moved into Durbanville (grew up in Constantia, before moving to the UK as a kid in the 80s).
Looking for a church and Peter L recommended you guys. We'd been going there and loved it, but it really is geared up for the over-50s.
Not having an easy time finding a place to be honest...
wow... I did not know that God was that concerned about what YOU thought of His people. Right now, I know God is not crazy about you not settling down, throwing away a bit of your arrogance... and worshiping HIM and doing ministry for HIM rather than judging His people.
The service you attended was a baptism so obviously there were more 'visitors' than normal.
And what stopped you from introducing yourself to the minister? Only you...you even admit you had looked up the minister before you visited! So why not have the courtesy to introduce yourself to him? You were only 3 feet away from him!
If you are looking for the 'perfect' church Ludwig, please move on. They are not looking for "perfect Ludwigs".
Hmm. Brent obviously took my comments in the friendly constructive way they were intended. Sorry you elected not to.
But in answer to your issues:
1) I think it is possible to be helpfully critical without being arrogant, and an unbiased reading of the post would have come to that conclusion.
2) without knowing me, you have jumped to several unjustifiable conclusions which I do not intend to address.
3) I did not introduce myself to the minister because, at the time I was 3 feet from him, he was preaching and it might have appeard slightly rude... and later he was deep in conversation with others.
and finally, 4) a clear reading of my comment on God's people will show it to be self-deprecating and in point of fact, admitting to failure. Sorry you did not pick that up.
With regard to the perfect church, I have already blogged on that, so will not comment further.
You have been to many services. A baptism would have meant there would be many visitors. Obviously, not every visitor would be personally spoken to. Were you not welcomed at the door? Or did that welcome slip your mind? Did you not speak to anyone sitting around you before the service? Too busy judging?
Why mention that you saw the Minister "deeply in conversation"? What stopped you still walking over an introducing yourself? Waiting and introducing yourself?
As for your comment about tea; could you not find where they have tea? Surely not too difficult.
Have you never thought of starting up a conversation at any of these churches you have visited and where no one has approached you? If you are such a mature Christian, surely that would not only be easy but, I would assume, natural.
Wow. You're a really angry guy. Can I ask, just out of interest, if you attend this church?
Not angry at all. But thought that a mature Christian would at least have made an honest effort to speak to the minister he had 'looked up' and would have spoken to other Christians around him and made some effort to integrate and meet others especially on a baptism day.
Were you greeted at the door?
Where was tea served? (notice the word - "served") Did you even ask? They would have made tea, coffee and cakes for those at church. Pity you did not make the effort to find out where it was being served (for you as well.)
You have this comment: "We probably won't end up going to that chuch, cos once again, we found it possible to walk right through the congregation and stand around outside for ages and not one soul talks to you."
As you seem not to be able to start conversations (once again) or find out where tea is being served or remember that you were greeted at the door.... but you "stood around for ages". Why not "stand around" at tea or at the minister's side?
See the inconsistencies? And the pattern of YOUR behaviour at the churches you judge so quickly?
You didn't answer my question, Greg.
We were handed a flyer at the door when we came in, yes, but we were a little late, so I wouldn't have expected anything else.
I find it very interesting that you seem to thing that it is encumbent on the *visitor* to make a special effort to introduce themselves to strangers, while you don't seem to address the problem of lack of pro-active friendliness on the part of the church. Extrapolating this for a moment, does this imply a similar attitude to evangelism? (what if I wasn't a Christian already? - in fact, how do you know I am?)
Is that really what you think?
In point of fact, while I have made a generally positive review of the church service, pointing out one area where, as a stranger to the church, improvement could be sought, you have actively attacked the visitor, accusing them of being immature, arrogant, irrational, generally e-abusing them, and all because the person left a little disapponted that no-one had taken time to say 'hey - you're new aren't you?' - and had had the gall to actually say so.
I'm afraid you are by your own words implicated in the judgmental attitude of which you accuse me. I hope that the next person you come accross at your church does not have the same fate.
What church was that again?
Wow Greg...you sure are tense. Perhaps a larger pair of undies is needed :)
Anyhoo...I agree there is some responsibility on visitors to make themselves at home and to try to make contact. And sometime the expectations of visitors may be far different to what the church may perceive them to be, some at points are even totally unreasonable...however I am pretty sure that is not the case here.
I understand where Ludwig is coming from here. It can be very difficult to get any real contact, support or friendship beyond a hello at the door and a goodbye afterwards.
Churches are supposed to be communities that revel in relationship but sadly often become clubs where outsiders are accepted, but often not really welcomed...
If I can speak of my own experience: I have been the minister of this church for 2 years and only a handful of people have invited my wife and I for dinner, now there may be some issue with me being the minister...however I believe this feeling of aloofness is commmon for many.
heh. Oh I know what that's like. I've been a ministry leader in the church for 19 years. While I was on staff at a local church in the UK I always had a policy that said 'talk to at least one person you don't know after the service before you talk to your friends'.
That was kinda fun anyway, and you have to remember that in your church, you are the comfortable one, and the visitor is the one who is not at ease, and feeling slightly lost.
The other problem is being a leader, and on the stage all the time, people assume you're remote, beyond them and for some reason, extra-special.
I'm not, can't speak for you Brent, but if your wife and you would like to come round for supper some time, you'd be most welcome :-)
Quite a conversation going on here! I agree in part with Greg and think you need to go more than once before you make up your mind about a church, but think that Greg has got way to upset and defensive about your post (I see he didn't answer as to whether he attends PVFC - not sure what to make of that!).
I do attend the church being discussed and am really sorry that you weren't made to feel welcome. However you did catch us on an unusual day with the baptism happening.
When I told my wife about it she was dissapointed that you hadn't felt welcome, because she is one of those people with an amazing gift for finding new people and talking to them (in fact, she recently welcomed a "new" couple who politely explained to her they had actually been coming to the church for months!)
At our discipleship group last night, one of the ladies who has been coming to PVFC for about a year told us of how on her first day at the church one of the members welcomed her and showed her where the Sunday School was for her son and how she feels so much community at PVFC.
So while we don't get it right every time, I think we usually do a lot better than this last Sunday and I'm sure you'll find that a lot of people assumed you were friends of the family having the baby baptised (especially if you were sitting right up front - although I realise it's a bad assumption).
Come around again sometime and see if we're any better on a day that's less chaotic and not quite as full!
Hi Gareth.
We'd never make a final decision based on one service - and anyway, there may be things that outweigh the down sides if they were true.
Most churches we've been to have been quite friendly, although there is one we've been to four times now and still failed to engage anyone in meaningful conversation despite trying!
It is a problem in the church at large though.
I share your curiosity about Greg though - sorry he has gone quiet, I would like to know what church he does go to.
If I was not a Christian though, I would by now have been completely frightened off by his aggressive attacks - but then we also don't know on a medium such as this - the age of the person writing, so allowances can't be made there for example.
It's the biggest drawback to communication via online media I think - anonymity is cool in one sense (after all, Ludwig isn't my real name, and I could be 12 years old, and you only have my word for it that I'm in my 30s...), but in another, how do you communicate meaningfully without any understanding of the person to whom you are talking?
Which is also where the whole jumping to conclusions is so dangerous...
hmm.
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